Question:
Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly? Michael H "My psychiatrist sent me for an MRI because she thinks I have a magnetic personality."
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That depends upon what focal length lens you’re using, what the ambient light levels are and what your focusing distance is. Rangefinders are generally best at focusing short focal length lenses and operate well in dimly lit situations. SLRs are easiest to focus with longer focal length lenses and in good light. SLR focusing accuracy increases as you get closer due to reduction in DoF (you can discern out of focus more easily) where RF accuracy decreases at close range (parallax errors increase, DoF decreases). Godfrey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly?
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No. It’s about the same. Something like a split image finder is pretty comparable to Leica rangefinder. — Fred Maplewood Photography – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly? Michael H "My psychiatrist sent me for an MRI because she thinks I have a magnetic personality."
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In fact I think the SLR’s split image focusing screen uses the same principles as the rangefinder. Just the SLR’s split image cannot fall out of sync.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. It’s about the same. Something like a split image finder is pretty comparable to Leica rangefinder. — Fred Maplewood Photography Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly? Michael H "My psychiatrist sent me for an MRI because she thinks I have a magnetic personality."
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The rangefinder patch of M6 can flare out at times under strongly directional lighting. The split-image centre of an SLR focusing screen will black out under relatively dark situations, especially with a lens slower than about f/4. Under such circumstances the rangfinder is much easier to focus. You can use the whole SLR screen for focusing most of the time, while with the rangefinder, you can only use the centre patch. Andrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. It’s about the same. Something like a split image finder is pretty comparable to Leica rangefinder.
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In fact I think the SLR’s split image focusing screen uses the same principles as the rangefinder. Just the SLR’s split image cannot fall out of sync.
Yes it can. If your camera has interchangeable screens, it is quite possible for the focusing screen to be out of alignment. — Tony Polson, North Yorkshire, UK
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Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly?
In my personal experience, the Leica RF (or any other RF that I’ve used) is more difficult to focus than an SLR, specifically with moving subjects, especially when highly selective focusing is required – say with a wide aperture and a lens longer than 35mm. It really depends upon how critical you are. That said, I know a couple of professionals who use the Leica M with such great facility that I’m humbled. But it comes with practice, and each of them have been using the M (and other cameras) daily for over thirty years. Practice, practice. I just love the RF for low-light work. It can’t be beat. My favorite: the M2 or M4 with a 35mm F1.4. Awesome!
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Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly?
Easier? It’s hard to say. There is a definite learning curve. More accurately? With wide angles and "normal" (i.e. 50mm) lenses the rangefinder is without a doubt more accurate than the SLR. With telephotos — Leica tops out at 135mm — the SLR wins. Close focusing, as in macro? Forget it. Where the Leica M (or any quality manual rangefinder) really excells is low-light and wide angles to normal lenses. With practice you can focus the 75mm and 90mm lenses fine in low light (narrow depth of field) but it doesn’t come instantly. The 135mm is just a weird experience on the Leica — especially if you use the Elmarit with the "eyes."
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No. It’s about the same. Something like a split image finder is pretty comparable to Leica rangefinder.
Comparable in theory but I believe the rangefinder is more accurate due to the longer baselength of the rangefinder windows — or something like that . . .
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And the Leica rangefinder isn’t just split image. It’s also a coincident rangefinder where two images are merged. — Bud Cook
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. It’s about the same. Something like a split image finder is pretty comparable to Leica rangefinder. Comparable in theory but I believe the rangefinder is more accurate due to the longer baselength of the rangefinder windows — or something like that . . .
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<<Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly? Depends on the SLR and lens, and the conditions. An SLR with lots of light loss in the viewing system and a slow lens can be very hard to focus. On the other hand, a pro SLR with high eye-relief and a fast lens is very easy. The nice thing about the Leica is that the viewfinder always looks the same, and doesn’t have mirrors and prisms to reduce the light. The focus accuracy depends a lot on which model you have (viewfinder magnfication) and which lens. (focal length.) I find the Leica very easy to use in a wide variety of situations but especially in interior and dimly lit areas, but my trusty manual-focus Nikon F3 is also very easy to focus with a fast lens.
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Hello dat123 said: In fact I think the SLR’s split image focusing screen uses the same principles as the rangefinder. Just the SLR’s split image cannot fall out of sync.
However, for short focal length lenses, the base length of an SLR split image is much shorter than a rangefinder camera. It’s about 6mm versus 50mm for the rangefinder. Rangefinder accuracy is directly proportional to baselength. — Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve of
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Hello dat123 said: In fact I think the SLR’s split image focusing screen uses the same principles as the rangefinder. Just the SLR’s split image cannot fall out of sync.
However, for short focal length lenses, the base length of an SLR split image is much shorter than a rangefinder camera. It’s about 6mm versus 50mm for the rangefinder. Rangefinder accuracy is directly proportional to baselength.
True. The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out. Different screens will black out at different f numbers, depending on the angles at which the screen’s split prisms are cut. A screen that can handle f4 will have about a 6mm baseline when used with a 24mm lens. But that same screen will have a 100mm baseline, double the Leica’s, when used with a 400mm lens (but that 400mm lens had better be f4 or better). A split image screen designed for fast lenses gives a wider baseline, and therefore better focusing accuracy. But it blacks out and becomes totally useless on slower lenses. A split image screen designed for slow lenses can be used with them, but when you use such a screen with a fast lens, you lose that extra baseline the fast lens could have given you. That’s why split image screens come in different flavors, and why it’s important to at least approximately match the screen with the lens. –Rich
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So apply the same math to a wide angle and who wins? The RF.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello dat123 said: In fact I think the SLR’s split image focusing screen uses the same principles as the rangefinder. Just the SLR’s split image cannot fall out of sync.
However, for short focal length lenses, the base length of an SLR split image is much shorter than a rangefinder camera. It’s about 6mm versus 50mm for the rangefinder. Rangefinder accuracy is directly proportional to baselength. True. The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out. Different screens will black out at different f numbers, depending on the angles at which the screen’s split prisms are cut. A screen that can handle f4 will have about a 6mm baseline when used with a 24mm lens. But that same screen will have a 100mm baseline, double the Leica’s, when used with a 400mm lens (but that 400mm lens had better be f4 or better). A split image screen designed for fast lenses gives a wider baseline, and therefore better focusing accuracy. But it blacks out and becomes totally useless on slower lenses. A split image screen designed for slow lenses can be used with them, but when you use such a screen with a fast lens, you lose that extra baseline the fast lens could have given you. That’s why split image screens come in different flavors, and why it’s important to at least approximately match the screen with the lens. –Rich
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – True. The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out. Different screens will black out at different f numbers, depending on the angles at which the screen’s split prisms are cut. A screen that can handle f4 will have about a 6mm baseline when used with a 24mm lens. But that same screen will have a 100mm baseline, double the Leica’s, when used with a 400mm lens (but that 400mm lens had better be f4 or better). A split image screen designed for fast lenses gives a wider baseline, and therefore better focusing accuracy. But it blacks out and becomes totally useless on slower lenses. A split image screen designed for slow lenses can be used with them, but when you use such a screen with a fast lens, you lose that extra baseline the fast lens could have given you. That’s why split image screens come in different flavors, and why it’s important to at least approximately match the screen with the lens.
What a fascinating post. Truly informative, this is one for the archive. Thanks for posting it! Best regards, — Tony Polson, North Yorkshire, UK
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[ ... ] The nice thing about the Leica is that the viewfinder always looks the same, and doesn’t have mirrors and prisms to reduce the light.
Say what? You’re starting to sound like you’ve never even seen a rangefinder. A rangefinder has TWO windows on the front. You DO look directly through ONE of them, but the image you get from the other has to go through exactly the same sort of prisms and/or mirrors as an SLR uses. Light reduction is minimal in both cases too — the secondary view you get in a rangefinder isn’t substantially dimmer than the primary image. In any case, the brightness of the image in an SLR normally depends a LOT more on the finder screen than on the mirrors and/or prisms in the light path. — Later, Jerry. The Universe is a figment of its own imagination.
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A rangefinder has TWO windows on the front.
Not all RF cameras have 2 windows, some only have 1.. Colyn Leica Camera/Lens Information http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Veranda/9472 X-No Archive-yes
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Not all RF cameras have 2 windows, some only have 1..
But even an RF camera with a single window (I’ve never seen such a beast, not to say one doesn’t exist) needs to be viewing the scene from two distinct points within that window. Otherwise there can be no triangulation and thus no focusing. -Dave-
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Is an M6 easier to focus than a manual focus SLR? Can accurate focus be achieved more quickly?
For me, it’s my eyes that are limiting. I am unable to focus a rangefinder because the image I see is just to small and to wok with. Therefore, I would recommend you try one and use your own judegment. Dave
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The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out.
Don’t you also want to multiply by the viewfinder magnification? —
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Not all RF cameras have 2 windows, some only have 1.. But even an RF camera with a single window (I’ve never seen such a beast, not to say one doesn’t exist) needs to be viewing the scene from two distinct points within that window. Otherwise there can be no triangulation and thus no focusing.
I need to clarify what I meant.. Most RF cameras use 2 small windows for focusing but only 1 for viewing. While it is true that the RF uses the same prism that the viewfinder uses, the viewfinder does not use the focusing mirrors.. Colyn Leica Camera/Lens Information http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Veranda/9472 X-No Archive-yes
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In article <C19CA64AB717DD2F.0570D38BB061AF12.BC51BF44A0096B22 [ ... ] I need to clarify what I meant.. Most RF cameras use 2 small windows for focusing but only 1 for viewing.
Are you saying that the "most RF cameras" allow you to somehow "turn off" the light coming from the second window except while you’re focusing? I’ve seen and used a pretty fair number of RF cameras over the years, and I’ve never seen such a thing, and this is the first time I’ve heard anybody say anything that would even hint at the possibility. Assuming you’re correct and somebody provides this, what exactly is the point of it? What does it accomplish? While it is true that the RF uses the same prism that the viewfinder uses, the viewfinder does not use the focusing mirrors..
On most RF cameras, at least part of what you see in the viewfinder has passed through a prism and/or been bounced off of at least one mirror. IOW, there’s at most a quantitative difference from SLRs (I.e. number of mirrors and/or prims) NOT a qualitative one (whether the image has been through a prism or bounced off a mirror at all). — Later, Jerry. The Universe is a figment of its own imagination.
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I’m not sure what you are trying to read into Colyn email. Most (if not all) RF use 2 small windows for focusing but only one for viewing. You look straight though the VF window, not thru any mirrors or prisms or anything else. The VF window usually has some built in diopter to increase / decrease the magnification to show more or less. If you own a RF and cover up the two windows used for focusing you’ll lose the focusing patch and nothing else. On a Leica M you also lose the framelines. The VF doesn’t get brighter or dimmer or change in any other way. There is no reason to "turn off" the RF light, it doesn’t affect viewing in anyway at all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need to clarify what I meant.. Most RF cameras use 2 small windows for focusing but only 1 for viewing. Are you saying that the "most RF cameras" allow you to somehow "turn off" the light coming from the second window except while you’re focusing? I’ve seen and used a pretty fair number of RF cameras over the years, and I’ve never seen such a thing, and this is the first time I’ve heard anybody say anything that would even hint at the
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The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out. Don’t you also want to multiply by the viewfinder magnification?
Not to determine the baseline. Putting a magnifier on the viewfinder is the same as putting a magnifier on a rangefinder. It doesn’t change the baseline (the distance between the two points of view you’re trying to match up), but it DOES magnify both images, making it easier to line them up precisely. Suppose you had a ruler in your field of view, and you looked at your split image viewing system focused at a certain distance behind the ruler. Changing the baseline would change which number on the top image of the ruler lines up with the ‘1′ on the bottom image of the ruler. Changing the viewfinder magnification would not change how the top and bottom images line up with one another, but it would magnify the misalignment as it magnifies both images. The net effect on focusing ease and precision would be fairly similar, so it’s reasonable to look at the product of the baseline times the magnification when comparing focusing systems. But that’s not the same as saying that a change in viewfinder magnification changes the baseline. –Rich
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The baseline of an SLR’s rangefinder is approximately equal to the focal length divided by the f number where the split image just barely doesn’t black out. Don’t you also want to multiply by the viewfinder magnification? Not to determine the baseline. Putting a magnifier on the viewfinder is the same as putting a magnifier on a rangefinder. It doesn’t change the baseline (the distance between the two points of view you’re trying to match up), but it DOES magnify both images, making it easier to line them up precisely.
The baselength times the VF magnification is called the "effective baselength", and does affect the accuracy of a rangefinder system. The higher the mag, the longer the effective baselength, the more easily you can see small changes in the rangefinder images, the more accurate and consistent the focussing. For a full treatment of the issues (in great gory detail) see: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/leica/technics/rfaccuracy.html Paul
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